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crownpoodle

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  1 Gorilla Banana hanging. Maybe a couple days early. I'll see if the rest hit the end of the week. I looked at the roots and they're still mostly nice and white. 2 gallon pot. Wrapping but not rootbound. Pretty substantial ball. I tore it apart. No evidence of salts building up, so I think this is all good to see. 

  I can tell my timing is off on my next up in the tent. I can poach a few that were going outside if necessary. Or...I could clear the tent out. Clean everything. Make the small changes I want to do. Go with my original choices, but veg them in the 4x4 for a nice, healthy start. I'll be plenty busy in the yard anyways.   

  Maybe a good point to step back and evaluate my program, being proactive not so reactive. Maybe more weed and less caffeine too. I get sorta frothy about stuff.

  GB and MGxRAB0509221011.thumb.jpg.37d94e122af4b0521490993a8c8c8c9c.jpg

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It's the mono ammonium phosphate. It generally isn't used as a feed in potted plant because the ammonium does make the soil "cold" and acidic.  It also prevents bloom set in excess amounts and causes stretch in growth and early flower stages.

 

It makes the cells elongate and causes rapid cell division I believe very much like some hormones. In my opinion it is one of the only things that can get that kind of rapid boost past day 35 of bloom. It will cause finger like growth out of the bud though if used in excess amounts.

 

I highly recommend super natural super boost over Kool bloom powder but they are both useful. I like to use the super boost the whole cycle. And at a minimum I think adding it every ten days with the gypsum as a flush fixes a lot of the deficiencies in most feed systems and causes faster growth overall.  It has less potassium and no magnesium,  but has the high P , ammonium nitrogen, and magnese. You can buy pure mono ammonium phosphate as well , and the company CX horticulture makes a veg booster with ammonium nitrate without the P if you just want the N.

Most feed is short P and ammonium nitrate though.

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Critical Romulan and Trainwreck Ogee @30 days. Big ol fans on the CR. Whole plant photos when more plants move out. They look good to me. No deficiencies I can spot, which keeps me on my same feed program. For now. 

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60 days. Both Ma Gooey x RAB down and hanging in the back room. Temp 65, rh 45. Rooms pretty dark. Got an indirect fan going.  The roots were not as nice and white as the GB? Same soil and nutes start to finish. They weren’t slimey at all, just a consistent tan color. Strain maybe? The smell drying is overpowering, but I can't ID anything specific. Like getting slapped in the face by a towel that cleaned up a bunch of melted juice bars or spilled smoothies. Syrupy. 

 Last 2 Gorilla Banana Haze down @61 days. I don't get any banana smell, not sure I'm supposed to? Still sweet but funky/raunchy too. The GB might be getting overwhelmed by the MG x RAB.

  I'm  pleased that once both these hit flower, I had no significant issues to contend with. No deficiencies or apparent nute lock-out that required anything beyond a couple foliar supplemental feeds. No significant bugs. Focusing on that issue before it becomes one. @shaggy this is the low P GH 3pt  you suggested. I forget what you called it. Seemed to work well enough. The buds didn't continue to swell like I expected (hoped). Both strains. Might be lacking something at some point, or just the strains. 

   Now it's just 2 Critical Romulan and one Trainwreck OGEE. I'll clean up the lower stuff then do some plant bondage since I have plenty of room. Get some better light penetration. They've got a few wonky leaves I need to figure out.  Nute burn, fan burn, heat stress. Likely a combo. Looking close it's mostly on one side of 2 plants. New growth is fine. The CR has a grape smell. Trainwreck smells raunchy sweet.

 

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53 minutes ago, crownpoodle said:

The roots were not as nice and white as the GB? Same soil and nutes start to finish. They weren’t slimey at all, just a consistent tan color. Strain maybe?

My guess is......

Unless you get the wet dry cycle perfect you will get darker roots.

Especially if you let things get real dry one day, maybe not even to a wilt.

I would not be too concerned, but, you could add some good microbes if you wanted to.......

 

53 minutes ago, crownpoodle said:

Like getting slapped in the face by a towel that cleaned up a bunch of melted juice bars or spilled smoothies. Syrupy. 

 

Nice description, that is hard for me too.

You did well!

53 minutes ago, crownpoodle said:

I don't get any banana smell, not sure I'm supposed to?

Maybe maybe not, it is in the banana haze.

 

53 minutes ago, crownpoodle said:

@shaggy this is the low P GH 3pt  you suggested. I forget what you called it. Seemed to work well enough. The buds didn't continue to swell like I expected (hoped).

Yea, low P formula from the mind of Spurr.

I thought I recommended a boost for P during flower with that formula??

Maybe not, but I should have.

Low P can be the reason for less swell.

When you reach this point again, bring it to my attention and we will address it better then.

Basically boost P and K after stretch is over.

Also if you use the koolbloom too early or too strong I find things will ripen faster, less yield/swell.

 

@Coastal

Pointed out a bit ago, that too much K in flower makes for real frosty plants with little swell.
His words were I think, you know this shit you see everywhere on Instagram.

Tiny frosty buds.
I know he is right too.....

How???

It happened to me personally.

Fixed the high K and boom my swell/yield was improved.

Thanks again for that one @Coastal

BTW 

His fix for that was the supernatural booster he recommended.

If you google it, that comes right up.

 

Just so you know I did not see that in your plants, buds look pretty good from here anyway...LOL

Edited by shaggy
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@shaggy not sure if you recommended a boost in P, but they got one. I don't know much about boosters, so have left them be for the most part. I hear and read about PGRs, which I'm thinking should be avoided. Along with most of the add flavor, add frost jugs. I see boosters with what seems like extreme #s to me, but maybe not if used correctly. I think without some good information, I'll create more problems than I fix. 

  I had an article on ash color come up. Mine is light grey to white, which sounds like the goal. Bet the ash goes dark if I dump more stuff in. I'm not participating in a "frostiest nugs" contest either. Interesting comments here about yield vs frost. Lot of froth about frost. Does just being frosty mean it's stronger or tastier? Or just more shit to get in my eye trimming. 

 

I guess I'm saying "stay the course", until I see a good reason not to.

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I've been trying to delve a bit more into gaining knowledge on boosters. **these are not my experiences, I am just relating from my reading of late.

There different boosters for different stages too. 

Such as Advanced bud blood..... it is used in the veg/flower transition and will help some plants like indicas grow more stretch and corresponding bud sites if used correctly and it also gets the flowering set going faster which tends to lead to an earlier harvest. 

The Supernatural superboost is a good one as it can be used throughout the flowering phase to adjust P/K ratios on the fly. Coastal shared this with me and I keep it around.

The General Hydro liquid koolbloom and the powder koolbloom are not the same and liquid is used after the stretch and then transition to powder that is more geared to the finish. I know a couple big name breeders that push their PK boosters in week 8 and 9 of 10week strain. Their pics are awesome and they win cups and their seeds sell out in hours if not minutes..... Anyhow..... I just use powder koolbloom when I start to see the calyx swelling beginning and usually the plant is throwing the odd brown pistil at that point. Go too early and the buds with pine cone or foxtail. Go just at the right time...... booom!! those calyxes go ape and a fresh set of pistils will cover those buds one last time and they will get all swellwed up by harvest time ..... or that's the goal.

 

Then there is a product I m trying to track down right now which is called Greenfuse Bloom Stimulator which is supposed to be very good and very natural...... 

I'm personally researching trying something new with my feeding and the semi organic path..... we'll see.

 

that's all I got on boosters fer now hehehe

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, crownpoodle said:

I hear and read about PGRs, which I'm thinking should be avoided.

PGR is Plant Growth Regulator

Anything that boosts plant growth from the outside falls into this category.

Some things considered plant growth regulators are naturally found in plants.

But by their action they get labeled as PGR too.

 

But yes, there are some folks using harmful PGR's.

Gravity Ect. should be avoided for health reasons for sure.

They just mess up the weed in favor of yield anyway.

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Thought I'd jump back in here and add a little bit more.

 

Glad I could help with the K issues @shaggy we where using potassium silicate as our only ph up and started getting the micro bud on some runs. Very frosty though and you can cut it at day 40 and get the same yield as going 65 lol. I had to laugh at the amount of breeders that use this tech to sell seeds. It's sad.

 

The thing I notice @crownpoodle as a long time grower in an area with a lot of growers always coming up learning and working together, is thst most growers start out following a feed program, then slowly either add boosters at random and stick with ones that seem to work regardless of other factors or just swap one feed system for the next and start at zero every time.

 

if you really want to progress past that you need to simplify as much as possible and build up from a good base.  Either find a system that works well then add 1 variable at a time and document the changes. Or start figuring out what the ratios your feeding are actually at and start learning how to adjust them towards max growth.. 

 

I kind of showed you above how to break the feed down into parts but you can also use your EC/ppm meter to figure out how much of each your adding if it's dry and powders etc. Start a book and keep record of mL added and EC and PH after to get to know each addition and how it affects the mix.

 

 

As far as boosters and usage, most people are just adding them at random hoping for some noticeable improvement,  but really they are usually one of a few things.

 

1 salt feed, like your base food but in a different ratio to try to enhance the feed program your getting. The powder bloom boosters are usually either mono potassium phosphate (0-50-30) based or mono ammonium phosphate (9-52-0) based to increase the P:K ratio to get more wieght.

Some are high K and are usually potassium sulfate based (0-0-50) they add crystal and buffer the medium to hold more food. The feed companies love K because of this, you can feed super high and the plants look extra lush and green but the stems are hollow and they are weak to bugs and mold,  producing less than a healthy diet.

 

Next is hormones and vitamins.  These just help the plant and the soil metabolize the food that's available. 

 

There are also mycorrhizial and enzyme boosters that are fungus or bacteria that eat the food and make it plant available or create beneficial relationships with the plant and trade available nutrients to get them more available.

 

In my mind if you don't have an ideal feed ratio, everything else is a bandaid to that bigger problem. You plant can do very well but you might be spending a lot for less optimal results and needing more preventative maintenance and expenses on sprays and everything else from longer crop cycles. 

 

The most optimal ratio I've tried is still the slownickle 3-4-2-60+Ca-10Mg kinda base and lower N after day 15-21 of bloom. I find more K in bloom adds frost so I do that after I get the size I want (around day 45-50) and helps burn too. 

 

N and P don't burn well, any anion I think. Cations burn well so flush magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts), potassium sulfate or calcium sulfate(gypsum) the sulfer adds terps and breaks up chemical binds.

 

 

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I know this is @crownpoodle's thread and this could be in the learning section but hope it's okay here 

What about Brix?? 

and @Coastalwhen you say 3-4-2-60+Ca-10Mg ..... the 60+Ca-10Mg confuses me..... maybe it's the pain meds LOL

I use the booster because it was what i was taught way back when it first came around our gardens. Always the powder koolbloom and usually very sparingly for 2 feeds. I tried a few runs with a feed program that I worked out with @Coastal's help but my results were not the same and i was chasing issues. Crop turned out okay but fell a bit flat on flavor. Potency was good, yield was average. There were variables I was missing like worm castings and such and the way we mix our soils and other additives like enzymes and beneficials that I don't have here and am not sure exactly how to apply. I made notes though and can go back and repeat it with different strains to see what happens. That was using the supernatural superboost and grotek Monster Bloom with much lower GH Bloom and micro measurements in the ratio. I had a really good run with it the first time and then I dunno ..... I ended up switching back to my old ways. LOL 

I have a hard time with the math involved in breaking down everything into the format @Coastalshows above.

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  Ya all got my head spinning again! In a good way though. All this is why I earlier said "stay the course", and why it makes sense to do so for me. 

   If I try and learn it all at once, or too fast, I loose track where I'm at. I've got some decent tools, and have been taking readings, making notes, and trying later to make sense of it. Seeing what makes what changes.

  @Tynehead Tom you, and anyone else can drop anything you want here. Keeps me from having to search and sort.

 

Learning,  cuz there's lots to learn.

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R  Lots of talk here about controlling grow room variables. Don't need to list them. These days I'm shooting for 80-82 and 50, lights off 72-74 and 50. The 50 is pretty easy lately, even when it's high outside. 

  Temps hang pretty close too, but I get  any occasional spike in the day when my outside air changes too fast. Upper 80s for as long as a couple hours. Until I can get a window to take the tent down and out of the shed. Add more sheet insulation, then put it back together. Until then that's my world. 

  Am I overreacting to the temps, or am I OK? I've heard it called "pole vaulting over mouse shit, when i just need to pick up my feet."

 

   More on controls. Spoke with a friend works at an "organic" grow near Eugene, Oregon. She called it "beyond indoor". Instead of a tight range, they intentionally run a variable range. Soil is raised, heated beds. But they vary the temps. Cooler early, warming, then cooling again. Variable fan intensity, mimicking nature. Some time adjustments to light intensity too. Sounded interesting. Sharp young woman. New grow to he. She'll keep me posted. Got a good eye. She's on my PO mailing list this week too for seeds. See if she can work something juicy into the rotation. 

 

Edited by crownpoodle
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@crownpoodle the high temps are fine for 90% of the grow. When you raise temps it makes stuff happen faster.. cells divide faster, stretch more. The plant requires more food and Co2 to stay optimal but if you match all the conditions you will get accelerated growth. Quality will suffer if you can't lower temps in the final weeks and molds also spread faster. But the light needs are less too so just dim your light if possible for thst time.

 

Your plant looks a little high in feed to me, not out of range really but I'd say either your letting it dry down too far after day 15-21 or the feed has built up. Doing an every ten day flush ( ideally with gypsum and super boost) would get you the biggest gains imo. You could boost K a tiny bit till the sugar leaves curl a bit and get fatter at the edges. But I'd flush first and check where your run out is at as far as EC PH.

 

@Tynehead Tom that's slownickles ratio as far as i could gather 2% potassium and 60% calcium lol Mg is at 10% ish but I found I like mine a bit lower or the soil bogs down a bit. I don't think I ever actually got potassium that low or calcium that high but I've been trying.

 

I did a while going lower P and higher K like Jidoka aka sacredcowconsulting but I didn't like it as much.

 

I too have had issues modifying the feeds but I've also hit some bangers so I know I'm close I just need to keep better notes myself. That is the key. And flushing/testing run off lol!

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@Coastal My next feed is already the gypsum flush. Been doing it consistently for almost 2months now. I had been checking run-off regularly and it was real consistent, but I haven't checked it in 2 weeks. So its time. 

  My ph runoff was good, but the ppm #s were always high. That's when I started seeing which adds were doing what. I'd been adding mag sulphate, which is what blew the ppm #s up. Even if I don't add it, my runoff #s are high. I believe that's from the residual MS in the soil (Promix), but just guessing. The MS is a part of my suggested feed, which so far is tolerable. But possibly tweakable too. I admittedly do not have experience running the same strains, multiple times. I've had more than one strain going too. Unless I see a big issue, I'm not chasing it. 

  As my outdoor kicks in, I'm a chronic compost tea brewer. It's used both in soil and foliar. I promise I'll keep it out of the tent. Seems like a good way to loose track of what's happening. 

   I'll watch the temps closer. See if I can avoid the upper range as I head into the warmer months. While I like full jars, I'm way more concerned with the quality going in. 

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If you guys saw the notes I keep it’s ludicrous. I have a small book in my tent I jot on in there, two big books outside of the tent one for describing everything I see in growth characteristics, morphology etc. another with feeds and temps/rh and fluctuations etc. I have some automation so I can easily check my numbers at any time of day. I also have a giant whiteboard where really important stuff goes and 3 calendars. But when I go back at the end of the year I write all pertinent information into what I call my grow bible. I have like 6-7 milk crates full of notebooks . Knowledge is power my friend.

I don’t rely as heavily on notes during Veg etc. just stretch and any complications or standouts. But approaching bloom and during bloom I’m like a mad scientist killing trees with my overuse of paper lol

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On 5/16/2022 at 12:00 AM, crownpoodle said:

@Coastal My next feed is already the gypsum flush. Been doing it consistently for almost 2months now. I had been checking run-off regularly and it was real consistent, but I haven't checked it in 2 weeks. So its time. 

  My ph runoff was good, but the ppm #s were always high. That's when I started seeing which adds were doing what. I'd been adding mag sulphate, which is what blew the ppm #s up. Even if I don't add it, my runoff #s are high. I believe that's from the residual MS in the soil (Promix), but just guessing. The MS is a part of my suggested feed, which so far is tolerable. But possibly tweakable too. I admittedly do not have experience running the same strains, multiple times. I've had more than one strain going too. Unless I see a big issue, I'm not chasing it. 

  As my outdoor kicks in, I'm a chronic compost tea brewer. It's used both in soil and foliar. I promise I'll keep it out of the tent. Seems like a good way to loose track of what's happening. 

   I'll watch the temps closer. See if I can avoid the upper range as I head into the warmer months. While I like full jars, I'm way more concerned with the quality going in. 

@crownpoodle how are you testing the runoff? Are you collecting runoff and testing that liquid or are you using a slurry test?

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Think I have a change of plans, but not by choice. My timing is off enough, I need use something I was going to use outside. Jack Frost x PT, or Strawberry Goo. I think the JFxPT is a better outside choice. I've got a few weeks to decide. Both look nice right now. 

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8 hours ago, Zett said:

How are the Trainwreck OGEEs coming along?

@Zett right now a little beat up. Had my focus on an issue that kept my focus elsewhere. Ph being off causing problems. Flushed. Buds look fine. Some frost. I'll put some pics up later.

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