RIL Talk

[Tonygreen]

Another 1

14 days flowering...

[corgitron_prime]

Hahaha mine look like little Charlie Brown trees next to those monsters. Decided to flip Monday.

[corgitron_prime]

Pic dump

[Coastal]

Looks pretty gluey too me! Great job @corgitron_prime @Tonygreen!

[corgitron_prime]

i gave them a couple nights of 15/9 and flipping tonight. nets are on stand-bye. Plan is to keep them stretching horizontal for one more week the let the start vertical growth. just in case i have an extra 315 for backup but im only going to turn it on if absolutely necessary. 

[Guest CannaFish]

Hey Tony I just wanted to drop in and say I love what you’ve done with the gorilla line. Much respect amigo! 
I saw some pictures of your big ole twin seeds. I’m very interested in what you get from those twins. I’ve just been enlightened that ‘polyembryonic” twins can contain exact genetic copies of the mother plant. I’m curious what you find and what you think about that.

 

[Tonygreen]

Indeed! Spontaneous haploids can also occur in twins. If any turn out sterile that would be a sign. Such a plant could be treated with colchine to double the genome back up to normal but since it was a haploid there is only one X to double... perfect homozygosity...

Going to pop the twins when I do RIL selections for next gens.

[Coastal]

Cool I never heard that before! 

[Tonygreen]

Mushroom guys have the skills to do it on hand in the lab. Germ pollen using aseptic protocol. Another way to get a haploid to play with.

[Guest CannaFish]

That's pretty cool Tony something else I didn't know. Haploids, diploids, triploids etc are still beyond my understanding. I did read that oregon cbd claims to have some infertile triploids.

 

I'm still reading up and learning about the polyembryonic seeds. Apomixis. Do you still have a clone of the plant that puts out the double seeds? The test would be to see if any of the twin offspring end up being exact copies of her.

 

btw Tony, I don't post here often and i'm not a member at IC but I've read alot about Tom Hill and saved alot of his post as notes that I printed out in hopes that someday I can use that knowledge. You have taken that to the next level and get maximum respect. Some of my favorite stuff ...

 

"hybrid vigor-if you take the time to find via selfing your most homozygous individual, then do the same with another divergent line, maximum heterosis will likely occur, yet nobody goes there."

 

"Now take your 5 favorite clones and plug them into a pedigree selection method. Self 5 clones, grow out their progeny in 5 seperate plots. Evaluate those plots as you guys are use to. Seek out "the best" of those 5 plots, self those individuals again. Repeat this process, you'll not need to go far I assure you (certainly not beyond 3 gens) if you know where to start you'll be in the money so to speak imediately (S1). Clear winning families will emerge 3 times more rapidly than any other breeding method.. So when someone says,,, fuck feminized seed they only have this use or that, please, tell them they are absolutely full of shit. They have zero idea of how to best take advantage of the maths as they pertain to selection methods in plant breeding. Not numbers, method.- Tom"

 

"the guys that get paid the most do so because they guess right sooner. This (these methods) is how you find out if you're right or wrong fastest, it really doesn't amount to anything more than that."

[Tonygreen]

Yep. I've got her! She will see a few more projects yet. Couple things to do on this karma collab first.

 

I was talking about a selfing club a few years ago. The idea was everyone s2 or better their fav cuts then we cross them for superior f1s.

 

Wish I'd saved more of Tom's stuff. Hope hes good wherever he is! Also snatching that quote. Lol.

 

Tom guided me to the math but I'm hard headed, I had to prove it myself using malea lol. Tom would be like well wtf tony lol. 

 

Tom's push for efficiency was to get the point across we all have only so much time. I got the feeling he felt like he wasted years fucking around.

 

Feel free to add more Tom Hill quotes if anyone has them! This scheme is from him minus the males ha!

 

[Guest CannaFish]

"Let's say you have 5 individuals you really like, and want to breed them all. Self them first, and rank their progeny. Individual 1 has 1 of 30 that is similar to mom, plant 2 has 3, but plant 4 has 15 individuals in her S1 progeny that are similar to mom. Okay so then we can say that plant 4 is most homozygous of the group. Therefore, plant 4 will extremely likely be the best plant to breed with, be it repeating the self, using it as a recurrent parent in a backcross, crossing it out, no matter, the vast majority of the time plant 4 because it selfs well will have the highest breeding worth of all those plants we genotyped via selfing."

 

"This is why doing away with the male (or reintroducing him later) makes a shitload of sense. But even if folk have an issue with that, and don't want to go there, determining the best female to breed to is a HUGE leap forward, maths wise. IE let's say you can grow 10 plants, you're now testing 9 males against your best (again, extremely likely) female instead of 5 males and 5 females you know nothing about, dig? There are maths we could put to it, but let's just say it's VASTLY advantagous to go about it in the former way."

[Guest CannaFish]

"Selfwell Cubewell. If a plant selfs well,,that is to say that many of her progeny upon selfing, resemble her, that is because she is homozygous across many traits. These are the plants you then plug into many areas of breeding, in the case of the backcross, in about 3, you will have that mother (recurrent parant who also selfs well) giving rise to a population that looks very much the same as her selfing progeny did, but with males.

 

You'll get that no matter the donor parent (the original; male you use) so it doesn't really matter much. Is this the way the backcross is traditionally used in breeding? NO, but who cares it is completely valid. The only part that would be taken out in real breeding would be the reintroduction of the Y, because they've not been so poisoned with ignorant stoner babble. Wierd, huh?

---

The one argument that floors this whole notion that breeding cannabis is best done by those versed in botanical genetics using a strict mathematical methodology is this:

 

The best dope that the world has ever seen was grown by farmers in places like Nong Khai, Santa Marta, Mazari, Mulanje, the Palni Hills and Oaxaca, and these farmers were completely ignorant of anything other than simple arithmetic, were completely ignorant of scientific methodology, were completely ignorant of anything pertaining to botany, chemistry or genetics; yet year in year out using nothing but simple traditional methods in disparate parts of the globe, they produced the best drug cannabis we've seen.

 

And it truly wasn't until the Americans and Western Europeans came along with their reductionist scientific world view that the Golden Age of drug cannabis came to an end.

 

And this my fellow stoners is why anyone with a joint in their mouth and a Gregor Mendel book in their hand, telling you the only way to breed superior cannabis; is full of pure unadulterated bullshit, because all of the evidence is to the contrary.

 

And all you lab coat wearing scientologists look like nothing so much as white missionaries brandishing the Bible saying - this is the only way!"

 

this is either from Tom or Chimera...

 

"The most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids"

[Guest CannaFish]

Last one... fom Nevil...

 

"Skunk#1 has useful characteristics not found in the Maple Leaf line. SK1 has unparalleled calyx to leaf ratio, a sativa like trait that I'm guessing came from a Mexican ancestor. Despite carrying many sativa traits, SK1 is as early as the Afghan ancestor. SK1 is an inbred line that throws true to type. Being a sativa dominant strain, SK1 provides a nice balance to indica dominant types.

 

Mostly, when people buy seeds, they are looking to grow the ideal plant, according to their taste. Smell, taste, high and yield, along with resin production are the basics. This must be achieved in a plant that flowers as early as possible. After that it's cosmetics.

Smell and taste have some correlation with the high and defines type.

Yield usually can be improved by hybrid vigour, along with careful matching of types. You lengthen the bud with sativa and you flesh it out with indica. Bud structure determines yield. Resin quantity is improved with indica, usually at the expense of yield.

Generally indicas flower earlier than sativas. It is often the late sativas that "fizz" with indicas. More yield at the expense of flowering time.

 

Breeding the ultimate hybrid is often a question of combining extreme characteristics from a number of lines in one hybrid. No pure breeding line has it all. A lot of work goes into creating these super hybrids. The objective is for every packet of seeds to contain something special. It's an individual plant that wins a cup. It's my job to stack the odds in favour of the grower.

 

Super Skunk was the most popular strain ever released by quantity of seed sold. Many lines have been created from this hybrid and SS is a part of most modern SK strains. There were a range of types that could be selected for and each breeder has put his stamp on the line by the choices he makes. The breeders who focussed on yield, lost some of the punch, which accounts for the bland sweet types. Those who focussed on resin and skunkyness lost some of the yield. Rarely is anything as good as the original F1.

N."

 

 

[Tynehead Tom]

damn you guys are going deep here.... i love it.

But it leads me to the question.... where is Tom Hill these days?

Wish I was more into computers and being online back when a guy could just send him a private message.

I do have a large PDF file of Tom Hill info , Growing Large Plants outdoors from the old Overgrow site. Not sure it has breeding in it as I have barely scratched the beginning of reading it. 

mad respect for your work @Tonygreen though I have yet to try the RIL.... still to busy crushing on the gorilla bubble lines LOL

[Tonygreen]

Had to be Tom, chim hated selfing back then ha!

[Guest CannaFish]

I figured if tom wrote it there would be some amount of cursing involved.

I'm smoking some of Chim's simply irresistible as I type. It's so good that I can't hate on Chimera or fem seeds. I see that breeders retail is going to release some more TH haze and Deep Chunk soon.

Hey Tony, I'm a little late to the game. Can you outline the RIL breeding background? Is the seed release of the inbred line or is it combined from 2 inbred lines?

 

[Coastal]

Great info! 

 

The RIL is 2 lines of GG4 bx taken to I believe 5 and 6 back crosses using 2 different male donors then recombining them to lock up the alles of the GG4 mom.. might be slightly off though.

[Tonygreen]

That's the just of it. Went to f2 gorilla bubble before bxing .

Basically you have two separate lines inbred to the same recurring p1, inbred down their own lines to create two near isogenic lines then recombined to reintroduce vigor.

 

Some thought they'd all be growth retarded mutants but they were wrong. As exotic as it sounds it is the proper way to inbreed and a classic scheme used often elsewhere besides cannabis.

 

So you get 2 lines with over 95% of the recurring DNA recombined that act like an f1 even though it's almost all the same alleles.

[Tonygreen]

6 hours ago, CannaFish said:

I figured if tom wrote it there would be some amount of cursing involved.

I'm smoking some of Chim's simply irresistible as I type. It's so good that I can't hate on Chimera or fem seeds. I see that breeders retail is going to release some more TH haze and Deep Chunk soon.

Hey Tony, I'm a little late to the game. Can you outline the RIL breeding background? Is the seed release of the inbred line or is it combined from 2 inbred lines?

 

Might be but Tom wasnt always so hyped and pushy or blunt however it could be seen, seemed desperate to get the ideas across to us that were the canna caveman, last time he was around, maybe more forcefully later than in earlier posts. Maybe he knew his time to teach was short for some reason.

Could be wrong though! Chim changed his tune on selfing later on icmag, in the beginning we were ruining cannabis was the vibe lol

[AVR1]

Welp, started 6 GG4 RIL and of those 6, 5 were females ! Good times!

[AVR1]

GG4 RIL about 2 weeks into 12/12

[Tonygreen]

If that dont look like a glue idk what does ha

[AVR1]

7 minutes ago, Tonygreen said:

If that dont look like a glue idk what does ha

 

One thing I have noticed from the word go, They love the light and can't seem to get enough. This is my second run with a 480 watt quantum board, the last plants I ran the light was a tad strong and I had to cut it back to about 60%, it's running at 100% now and as you can see they are reaching for the light

[Tonygreen]

The hybrid vigor is real. And generated from the same gene pool.

 

Wish Danny was here to see it. I was too slow...

Those aren't coming out of s1's reliably.

Every one I've seen is the same.